note: I really did want to post this yesterday but I couldn’t get it finished. Sorry it’s late.
Hello my friends. Here is my second post on the book I’m reading with some of my followers. I hope that others have joined up. I really am hoping to get in a chapter every weekend. We’ll see if I can make it on a consistent day or just before Monday… I’ll take what I can get :)
I will try to make these post informative enough that you could read them if you don’t have the book and they might be beneficial. This is some serious food for thought in my life, hopefully in yours as well.
From Sinai to Calvary.
If I’m being honest, my head (maybe actually my heart) is spinning a little with trying to grasp some of these concepts, I think you will see in my writing how I struggle with being a moralist a little bit. I think at heart I forget that even my best works are filthy rags. I take pride in being a good mom and wife and doing what I see as God’s commands, which is a very good thing, but, I do them because I feel satisfaction in myself and get self worth from it instead of doing it because I love Christ… I think I may be subconsciously parenting in a similar way. Trying to get my kids to obey to make God happy when all they need is Christ and if I’m not careful I will inadvertently teach them that somehow they can do good things to make God happy with an unregenerate heart and when their hearts are regenerated they bring glory to God through Jesus not themselves. Where I struggle a bit I think is that our obedience does glorify God and is to be a part of our lives. Simple but seriously deep stuff if you ask me.
I just read Rom 6-8 and found it so helpful. Give it a read and let me know if that helped you. I’m sorry if what I’ve written is a little confusing, welcome to my head :)
I think I use the bible as a rule book because I’ve been taught religious obedience (I am so thankful for that for the record, I just wish that I didn’t often miss why I should be obeying not just obeying). She gave different types of obedience that we teach our children; initial obedience, social obedience civic-obedience, religious obedience. I thought she made a few really good points under religious obedience she says “We call this form of obedience “religious obedience” because it has to do with the practices of the faith but it is not necessarily the fruit of saving faith. It may be the fruit of any number of things, including a desire to avoid discipline or, worst of all, a desire to feel good about their own obedience”pg 31. Ok so I quoted that because I think it secretly nails my heart but thanks be to God that I don’t live there. I can take all that to Christ and realize it never could be me and never will be. she also says it may be the fruit of real faith because I’m sure like you I’d never want to discourage my child from seeking God by telling them it wasn’t real faith I can’t judge their hearts.
(ok I know I’m a little all over the place. I’ll get it. next week maybe I’ll just answer the end of the chapter questions. )
I thought she had some had a really good point on pg 33 she says “religious obedience is probably the most difficult and dangerous form of obedience simply because it is so easily confused with conformity to God’s law. It’s the place where most Christian families go terribly wrong. yes, we are commanded to teach the Word, prayer, and worship to our children but their acquiescence to these things won’t save them. Only the righteous life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ saves them.”
here are some pretty heavy quotes. What do you think about this? Do you find yourself fighting this idea at all?
On pg 35 she says “the law does show us the right way to live, but non of us obeys it. Not for one millisecond. Even though our children cannot and will not obey God’s law,we need to teach it to them again and again. And when they tell us that they can’t love God or others in this way, we are not to argue with them w are to agree with them and tell them of their (I think she should say our!!) need for a savior”
pg 36 “We are commanded to give them he law so that they will be crushed by it and see their need for a savior. The law won’t make them good. It will make them despair of ever being good enough, and in that way it will make them open to the love, sacrifice, and welcome of their savior, Jesus Christ.”
“Every way we try to make our kids good that isn’t rooted in the good news of the life death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ is damnable, crushing, despair- breeding, Pharisee-producing law. We won’t get the results we want from the law. We’ll get either shallow self righteousness or blazing rebellion or both. We’ll get moralistic kids who are cold and hypocritical and who look down on others. WE have to remember that in the life of our unregenerate children, the law is given for one reason only:crush their self confidence and drive them to Christ.”
I’m out of time. I have to leave for soccer. I would love to know though what your thoughts were of this chapter. did is nail you? Did you think she goes over board?
Do you think I miss represented her at all because I’d also love to hear if I missed something.
If you have the time answer one of the questions from the end of the chapter. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
5 comments:
We've been in a SS for the past couple months going through Romans and hammering in the reality that Christ saves, end. I think that is the offensiveness of the gospel- the fact that it is not one iota of your own personal effort that saves you. Sanctification, of course, requires effort, but your salvation was accomplished solely by Christ's work. That leaves no room for pride and that is what our human hearts continue to kick against. It's hard to be humble.
Anyway, about the book! I had difficulty with two points in this chapter.
1- Speaking to your child as an unregenerate and telling him that once he is saved he will feel differently. Example- pg 32, little Benny will someday want to pray, want to sit still; also pg 22, Wesley will love his brother. Most of us (probably accurately) know our kids are not Christians at this point in their lives, but I think it is wrong to tell them how different they will feel "someday" once they are saved. I've seen this grow into teenagers and young adults despairing because they do not feel like loving their brother, feel like honoring their parents, feel like being chaste in their relationships. I've seen these young people perceive that to mean that God has not saved them because their feelings have not changed. Our salvation is not dependent on how we are doing in our sanctification but on the object of our faith who is Christ. I just don't see why you should point a child towards salvation with the markers being their feelings.
I realize that once a child is saved, that God will be working in him and he probably will want to pray and want to love his brother (although it may take some time of sanctification.) But that should not be the focus. I think, we should be telling our child about the object of their faith- Christ- and not make it about the kid and his feelings. Did I make sense?
2- The bit about being glad that Benny didn't close his eyes and pretend to pray with the family because that would be lying. (Pg 33) This line of logic isn't flying with me. Is it dishonest for your child to sit quietly in church during the sermon because that indicates he's pretending to listen? The word is being preached then and an unsaved child would still have a heart of stone so couldn't possibly be listening so why should he even pretend to? I think it is appropriate to pray with your children and teach them to pray. That is the blessing of growing up in a Christian home. Your kids will see how God answers prayers and how everything can be prayed about. Who knows at what point God begins to work in your child's heart and I don't think it's a good idea to, again, point at your kids feelings and say, "You (unregenerate one) couldn't have wanted to pray with us and it would have been dishonest for you to even pretend to." Did anyone else grimace at the word, "lying"?
Sarah, I hope that I'm not offending you by my two points of disagreement. I have been challenged to think more about my parenting the girls in light of the gospel's grace I have received. I am glad to have this book to read and hope that everyone else has input, too. I just feel strongly about the way we talk to our kids about salvation. I'd love to hear what others think!
I still need to finish chapter 1, but I wanted to respond to Missy's comment. I also had the same thoughts about the section and Benny and prayer. I understand what the author was trying to say, but she seemed a bit extreme to me in what she would have told her child. I too think that it is ultimately important to teach our children to pray and how prayer is our way of communicating to God and a way of showing them what our relationship with God looks like.
This book has definitely given me "food for thought"! I hope to post more once I read the rest of chapter 1 and look over the questions!
Missy you certainly aren't offending me. I love a good discussion :) I've never read the book and like you, am really interested in how we talk to our kids about the gospel, I thought this book would be thought provocing and so far it has been for me.
I thought you made a really good. I didn't really think about how she was stating it in terms of their feelings but i think you are right it really has nothing to do with how we feel. If it did I would be in trouble because I still don't "feel" like obeying or sometimes even praying. I think reminding them that God is the only one who can change their heart is really important and teaching them that they need to take it to Christ in prayer is vital.I guess that leads us right into your second point.
When she is talking about Bennie in not praying I feel like she is address a child who is comforming outwardly by making a show of praying and when there heart is absolutely not in prayer.
Although she does say pray with the family and my three year old is certianly able to pray and I encourage her to do so all the time so if in anyway she is incinuating that an "unregenerate" (i don't really like that word) child should be praying I would disagree.
When I read this section I felt like she was demeaning. Maybe that was my way of inarticulatly saying what you and Lauren brought up :) I felt like she was making this huge distinction between herself and him. That didn't sit well with me. I probably would have told him that sometimes I don't want to sit quietly when I pray either but what we are doing is really important. For instance she says "Do you know why we love to pray Bennie? We love to pray because our hearts were just like yours?" I really don't like how that is worded at all. I don't ever want my kids to think I think of myself as superior because I have a "regenerate heart" it just didn't seem to speak humility to me but condemnation. I do think she made a few good points in the that section but I'd agree with you that something was off.
I do think though that each child is different so each situation is going to be different. you may have a fidgeter who just hasn't learned to sit still. They are kids and do childish things but you may have one that is a good acter. I'm not sure that lying is the appropriate word choice when she was using a four year old as her example. Because of their stage of developement I don't think it's lying for them to be praying even when maybe their distracted and not paying attention that's just training little people. I don't really think they understand hypocracy yet. However when you have older children who have been raised in christian homes they learn to walk a pretty good walk and may have a completely unaffected heart and at that point they have learned to be hypocrits and what they are doing is lying and whats frightening is they are probably lying to themselve and that's scary stuff. So i think that her point was valid she just has the age group wrong.
When she returns to her section of the mom playing her game with the kids and Jordans response when she leads the game the right way i actually wrote in my book BAHAHAHA because I just didn't see his response being a 180 like that. I still think he'd sit there and think I don't want to obey God. I think what I mean is that I can give it my best effort and the bible says train a child in the way he should go and even when he is old he won't depart from it prov 22:6, I know you can take hte verse different ways but my point is, I'm called to be faithful but its God alone who can change their hearts and he very well may use my mistakes as what draws their heart and I have to say I'm so thankful for that because otherwise I don't think I could sleep at night.
thanks for your comments girls. I loved them.
umm it should say... unregenerate child SHOULD NOT pray she is wrong.
and I guess I should qualify I don't always feel like obeying :)Not that I don't ever :)
My head is spinning as well, Sarah! I am looking forward to reading more because I feel a little undone.
I am finding that I agree with a lot of what she says, but when it comes to practically applying some of it I am going to have trouble. We mired down in the "initial obedience," "social obedience," "civic obedience," and "religious obedience." Our kids are young and they need to be trained. We are still struggling with "don't run in the street because you could get killed" or you can't have a full on conversation in the middle of the church service because it is rude to others. Some of this stuff is deep, and our little ones can't communicate on that level.
However, I do see that I would have a tendency to get stuck in the mode of just teaching obedience and not move to the next level of explaining the Gospel. Just in the last year are we able to communicate with Chase on this level. The other two are kind of young. With that said, I really loved some of the things she pointed out.
I loved how with the Jonah story she was able to focus on God's mercy and not on the obedience or lack there of. I need to do that in my own life. I can do that with my kids! Obedience is just an outworking of the accomplished work. Our obedience isn't going to gain favor. So basic, but so freeing and refreshing.
Also, I think we need to remember that we don't want "good kids" we want "saved kids." It is ok to let them fail and disobey. It will show them their great need for a merciful Savior.
Good stuff!!
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